I get sick, and I get silent, because I can't stand it - and I lose my ability to articulate when faced with the ordinary yet breathtaking bullying of Dylan lyrics (along with others). It's like someone throwing acid and I can only burn. I am not happy with this. I could never debate anyone, because rage makes me speechless. This is not helpful. Thank you for staying articulate where I can't (yet).
Thanks. Rage makes me speechless, too. You have just explained to me why I can NOT tolerate my friends who want to have useless hand-wringing conversations about the Cheeto-faced one who will be inaugurated later this month. I can NOT participate.
I like your piece very much. I've long been appalled by Dylan worship, and have said so. The film is excellent when it comes to describing a milieu--one that I knew very well--but it presents Dylan in a sanitized form that acknowledges his ambivalence while glossing over his emotional cruelty. Suzie Rotolo's memoir is a more reliable guide, since she actually had to put up with him. Chalamet's voice is sweet compared to Dylan's, and that pretty much represents the spirit of the film.
Do you remember times we sat and tried to figure out how to separate one kind of objection to whatever from its commonplace swapped depiction? I mean the issue of you don't like this depiction of women because you don't like sex and you want to control men. I worked hard and with pleasure at creating the little grid of this is the problem--not this other thing you want to distort the problem as. It doesn't stop anyone from thinking they way they think. And what sometimes surprises people the most is my lack of interest in reforming what people have arrived at on their own steam. I'm never telling artists what to do, including Bobby. The soft pedaling of Dylan worship is to say people like Dylan in spite of his contempt for women when the truth is they like Dylan because of it.
I always felt that about Dylan and women, but it was a vibe for me, and it came across as the kind of machismo that enraged me. I think his late material is a repudiation of the brief moment when he dared to imagine himself as something other than The Man. Congrats again on your marriage. After 45 years with Tony, I'm only afraid of mortality--his and mine--and that's the best you can hope for.
Oh, my god, I can't wait to see you in the Vows column. Congratulations on all fronts. But I digress.
I DID just see the movie, and I am of an age to know that everything you say about Dylan and his cronies is absolutely true. But this is my favorite sentence of the whole wonderful piece (I also liked the dueling songs quite a bit): "The dead thing in his eyes is what makes him butch, and you can see from his slight body how any girl can be butch if she doesn’t ask for love or move too smoothly in her joints."
The thing I am grouchy about lately, as I am binge re-watching Madam Secretary, is the way professional women are policed about their dress and hair and high-heeled shoes. Women are supposed to try cases in court and manage world diplomacy in tight skirts and fuck-me shoes. WHY? Thank god I was an academic and could dress how I pleased. Every time I get caught up in films or other aspects of popular culture, I get mesmerized (rage-fueled mesmerized) by the drag that women are supposed to wear.
Sitting here listening to Krishna Das at the Tibet House as part of the Chanting 108 Hanuman Chalisas. Started reading today's post. Started crying. May I excerpt this part and post it to my FB page? It so speaks to me - but of course I won't without your permission.
"Here’s my New Year’s resolution for my fellow humans. Well, my request. I request you resolve not to turn an insight on how society works against women into a piece of personal pain. The gigantic social and political ill of hating women does not hurt my feelings. The gigantic social ill of hating women, sanctioned by religions, civil laws, and traditions, includes segregating them, policing their sexuality, restricting their circulation, silencing them, killing, raping, and maiming them. This is a social issue—about to become government policy. Not a personal insult that makes me unhappy.
Also, when I and other feminists object to the loving embrace of hatred of women in the writings and other art forms made mainly by men but not only men, our delicate nervous systems have not been jostled. When I say for example Norman Mailer made relegating women to the status of whores and servants a model of cool, I’m not holding my nose at his idea of hot sex. Nothing is more effective at dismissing the insights of feminists than classifying them as prigs and puritans and claiming they want to restrict your orgasms.
Also, I couldn’t care less about reforming, teaching, or uplifting men at a personal level. Do it yourself or don’t do it. It’s not my job to teach you or guide you step by step out of your swamp. My job is to say that when you lovingly embrace people who hate women and make it clear they find women disgusting, weak, and not really quite human, when you love the work of these people without noticing the hatred of women in it, you are supporting a giant social ill that harms me and people like me. Go ahead and keep loving what you love. I can’t stop you.
To review. Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings. The critique of this giant social ill is not an example of sexual disapproval. The critique of this giant social ill is not an offer of unpaid teaching labor."
You can repost it but you must promise me you will delete anyone who argues with the points made. I don't debate, and I don't want my words debated. Everyone is free to post what they like on their own sites, but I do not host bulletin boards for debate here or elsewhere.
Got it - I was going to attribute it to you (as a courtesy) without any further comment on where you can be found - and was also considering not allowing comments. I don't debate on FB ever, waste of time. I could always just put it in quote and not attribute to you. My husband is a major Dylan fan and has been for decades (we are in our 70's). Not sure I even want to debate it with him, even though he does recognize the truth of your words.
"Babe" resonated. I've been listening to Dylan since I was 13, starting w/ his first album. At 74, when I consider his lyrics--which were so contemptuous of women--I shudder. And yet, the Nobel for literature? I hate to think of the messages they conveyed to me in my adolescence, which then entered my subconscious. He was hardly unique then (Under My Thumb, etc.), of course, but maybe unique in his persistence. And because Dylan's work was considered high art, unassailable, the contempt was (is) enshrined in the culture.
This male person has always loathed Dylan's misogyny. ("You just sorta wasted my precious time"-- and you didn't waste HERS?) I acknowledge that he's written some excellent songs, but the distance between, say, "Black Diamond Bay" and "Maggie's Farm" (which I'll constantly hear in the afterlife for my sins) is colossal. And if he's a poet, then I'm a brain surgeon. Good post!
"Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings." This makes sense, and yet it is a struggle for me. I feel somehow hurt by societies hatred and diminishment of women. I realize that I'm letting it hurt me. I think if I could learn to stop feeling hurt by it, I would not only feel better, I could be more articulate in writing about it. Thanks for the reminder that I don't really need to care what others think of me - especially those who would say I'm less than because I'm a woman.
You can feel whatever you feel. I'm talking about the framing of hatred of women by others as an insult, something trivial and a matter of hurt feelings, instead of the giant engine of social damage and political unfairness it is.
Love your Bob Dylan take! I went to the movie, enjoy going to movies in a theater, came out unsettled for exactly that reason: how he treats women, but couldn't put my finger on it and still loved the movie.
Excellent! Superlative! Brilliant! Sorry about your car ding, but the rest is great. I'll up grade as soon as I can. In the meantime, thank you for your generosity.
What a great article describing how the entertainment world is full of misogyny, and increasingly sanctioned in public policy. I had no idea about Bob Dylan (never really listened to him much but now I’m curious). Really made me pause to think of how I’m being entertained. I can be more selective and work on staying engaged locally. Some communities in my province (Ontario Canada) have declared that there is a femicide emergency. This is a start.
Mazel tov! Being married seems to make a happy difference for you so I am happy for you. I am suddenly on my own at 69 after my third husband has come out as gay, with a large side of unfaithfulness. I would have rather had the fries with that. How many times have I wondered if I should have passed on this marriage? Too many to count. But there were countless times with him when I felt extremely loved and safe. A feeling that I had never experienced before and would not want to have missed. I am old now. I have learned to take the salty and the sweet as they come. And in time I will remember only the sweetness on my lips. And remember how I was once very brave indeed.
Brilliant piece -- it's took me years to see the thread that connected the first person I married (aged 18) to his Dylan worship. My PhD is in feminism and it still evaded me because I was too close to it. But it's not personal, it's systemic -- "To review. Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings. The critique of this giant social ill is not an example of sexual disapproval. The critique of this giant social ill is not an offer of unpaid teaching labor." Thank you.
I get sick, and I get silent, because I can't stand it - and I lose my ability to articulate when faced with the ordinary yet breathtaking bullying of Dylan lyrics (along with others). It's like someone throwing acid and I can only burn. I am not happy with this. I could never debate anyone, because rage makes me speechless. This is not helpful. Thank you for staying articulate where I can't (yet).
I know what you mean. I have been practicing the sound of these sentences for a long time.
Thanks. Rage makes me speechless, too. You have just explained to me why I can NOT tolerate my friends who want to have useless hand-wringing conversations about the Cheeto-faced one who will be inaugurated later this month. I can NOT participate.
Waste of your time and life.
I like your piece very much. I've long been appalled by Dylan worship, and have said so. The film is excellent when it comes to describing a milieu--one that I knew very well--but it presents Dylan in a sanitized form that acknowledges his ambivalence while glossing over his emotional cruelty. Suzie Rotolo's memoir is a more reliable guide, since she actually had to put up with him. Chalamet's voice is sweet compared to Dylan's, and that pretty much represents the spirit of the film.
Do you remember times we sat and tried to figure out how to separate one kind of objection to whatever from its commonplace swapped depiction? I mean the issue of you don't like this depiction of women because you don't like sex and you want to control men. I worked hard and with pleasure at creating the little grid of this is the problem--not this other thing you want to distort the problem as. It doesn't stop anyone from thinking they way they think. And what sometimes surprises people the most is my lack of interest in reforming what people have arrived at on their own steam. I'm never telling artists what to do, including Bobby. The soft pedaling of Dylan worship is to say people like Dylan in spite of his contempt for women when the truth is they like Dylan because of it.
I always felt that about Dylan and women, but it was a vibe for me, and it came across as the kind of machismo that enraged me. I think his late material is a repudiation of the brief moment when he dared to imagine himself as something other than The Man. Congrats again on your marriage. After 45 years with Tony, I'm only afraid of mortality--his and mine--and that's the best you can hope for.
A waiting drink and a cheese sandwich for tea? That could be an entire piece on its own.
Understanding and kindness is everything.
Loved every bit of this and I too have not seen the movie.
Thanks, love (babe).
I was thinking that about the drink and the cheese sandwich too, Sue.
Oh, my god, I can't wait to see you in the Vows column. Congratulations on all fronts. But I digress.
I DID just see the movie, and I am of an age to know that everything you say about Dylan and his cronies is absolutely true. But this is my favorite sentence of the whole wonderful piece (I also liked the dueling songs quite a bit): "The dead thing in his eyes is what makes him butch, and you can see from his slight body how any girl can be butch if she doesn’t ask for love or move too smoothly in her joints."
The thing I am grouchy about lately, as I am binge re-watching Madam Secretary, is the way professional women are policed about their dress and hair and high-heeled shoes. Women are supposed to try cases in court and manage world diplomacy in tight skirts and fuck-me shoes. WHY? Thank god I was an academic and could dress how I pleased. Every time I get caught up in films or other aspects of popular culture, I get mesmerized (rage-fueled mesmerized) by the drag that women are supposed to wear.
Happy New Year.
A writer asked if she could interview us for the Vows column, and we said yes! I hope it brings more subscribers. xxL
Don’t date him? Reader, I married him. Twice. But then I also divorced him twice.
Laurie, a writer who makes me hoot, is gold. You are platinum.
Thanks, Love
Sitting here listening to Krishna Das at the Tibet House as part of the Chanting 108 Hanuman Chalisas. Started reading today's post. Started crying. May I excerpt this part and post it to my FB page? It so speaks to me - but of course I won't without your permission.
"Here’s my New Year’s resolution for my fellow humans. Well, my request. I request you resolve not to turn an insight on how society works against women into a piece of personal pain. The gigantic social and political ill of hating women does not hurt my feelings. The gigantic social ill of hating women, sanctioned by religions, civil laws, and traditions, includes segregating them, policing their sexuality, restricting their circulation, silencing them, killing, raping, and maiming them. This is a social issue—about to become government policy. Not a personal insult that makes me unhappy.
Also, when I and other feminists object to the loving embrace of hatred of women in the writings and other art forms made mainly by men but not only men, our delicate nervous systems have not been jostled. When I say for example Norman Mailer made relegating women to the status of whores and servants a model of cool, I’m not holding my nose at his idea of hot sex. Nothing is more effective at dismissing the insights of feminists than classifying them as prigs and puritans and claiming they want to restrict your orgasms.
Also, I couldn’t care less about reforming, teaching, or uplifting men at a personal level. Do it yourself or don’t do it. It’s not my job to teach you or guide you step by step out of your swamp. My job is to say that when you lovingly embrace people who hate women and make it clear they find women disgusting, weak, and not really quite human, when you love the work of these people without noticing the hatred of women in it, you are supporting a giant social ill that harms me and people like me. Go ahead and keep loving what you love. I can’t stop you.
To review. Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings. The critique of this giant social ill is not an example of sexual disapproval. The critique of this giant social ill is not an offer of unpaid teaching labor."
Laurie Stone
You can repost it but you must promise me you will delete anyone who argues with the points made. I don't debate, and I don't want my words debated. Everyone is free to post what they like on their own sites, but I do not host bulletin boards for debate here or elsewhere.
Got it - I was going to attribute it to you (as a courtesy) without any further comment on where you can be found - and was also considering not allowing comments. I don't debate on FB ever, waste of time. I could always just put it in quote and not attribute to you. My husband is a major Dylan fan and has been for decades (we are in our 70's). Not sure I even want to debate it with him, even though he does recognize the truth of your words.
If you are going to post it, you MUST attribute it to me. And yes, don’t allow comments to be safe.
"Babe" resonated. I've been listening to Dylan since I was 13, starting w/ his first album. At 74, when I consider his lyrics--which were so contemptuous of women--I shudder. And yet, the Nobel for literature? I hate to think of the messages they conveyed to me in my adolescence, which then entered my subconscious. He was hardly unique then (Under My Thumb, etc.), of course, but maybe unique in his persistence. And because Dylan's work was considered high art, unassailable, the contempt was (is) enshrined in the culture.
This male person has always loathed Dylan's misogyny. ("You just sorta wasted my precious time"-- and you didn't waste HERS?) I acknowledge that he's written some excellent songs, but the distance between, say, "Black Diamond Bay" and "Maggie's Farm" (which I'll constantly hear in the afterlife for my sins) is colossal. And if he's a poet, then I'm a brain surgeon. Good post!
"Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings." This makes sense, and yet it is a struggle for me. I feel somehow hurt by societies hatred and diminishment of women. I realize that I'm letting it hurt me. I think if I could learn to stop feeling hurt by it, I would not only feel better, I could be more articulate in writing about it. Thanks for the reminder that I don't really need to care what others think of me - especially those who would say I'm less than because I'm a woman.
You can feel whatever you feel. I'm talking about the framing of hatred of women by others as an insult, something trivial and a matter of hurt feelings, instead of the giant engine of social damage and political unfairness it is.
Love your Bob Dylan take! I went to the movie, enjoy going to movies in a theater, came out unsettled for exactly that reason: how he treats women, but couldn't put my finger on it and still loved the movie.
Love is love.
Excellent! Superlative! Brilliant! Sorry about your car ding, but the rest is great. I'll up grade as soon as I can. In the meantime, thank you for your generosity.
Thanks, babe. xxL
What a great article describing how the entertainment world is full of misogyny, and increasingly sanctioned in public policy. I had no idea about Bob Dylan (never really listened to him much but now I’m curious). Really made me pause to think of how I’m being entertained. I can be more selective and work on staying engaged locally. Some communities in my province (Ontario Canada) have declared that there is a femicide emergency. This is a start.
Mazel tov! Being married seems to make a happy difference for you so I am happy for you. I am suddenly on my own at 69 after my third husband has come out as gay, with a large side of unfaithfulness. I would have rather had the fries with that. How many times have I wondered if I should have passed on this marriage? Too many to count. But there were countless times with him when I felt extremely loved and safe. A feeling that I had never experienced before and would not want to have missed. I am old now. I have learned to take the salty and the sweet as they come. And in time I will remember only the sweetness on my lips. And remember how I was once very brave indeed.
Hey, babygirl, happy new year and happy new and sweet thoughts. I am 78. Lucky as fuck, I know. I met Richard when I was 60. You just never know. xxL
Brilliant piece -- it's took me years to see the thread that connected the first person I married (aged 18) to his Dylan worship. My PhD is in feminism and it still evaded me because I was too close to it. But it's not personal, it's systemic -- "To review. Hatred of women is a giant social ill, not a personal insult or a matter of hurt feelings. The critique of this giant social ill is not an example of sexual disapproval. The critique of this giant social ill is not an offer of unpaid teaching labor." Thank you.
I am on my feet cheering, LOUDLY. "YES!!!! That! What you said. Just how you said it." (And I did see the movie.)