“The only story worth telling about any of this is the pass. The conditions that fostered what happened to Andrea are manifold and social, not the plight of individuals.” 🎯 while the article did chronicle the web of evasions/self-interest of those adjacent to munro’s fame & clearly showed what they gained by avoiding judgment or action, i agree that by making this such a “can you believe it” story, it perpetuates the myth that such events are rare. when in fact the data clearly shows how commonplace it is. ask any woman or girl. and still you have men and even women say “it’s not all men.” duh. but it’s a helluva lot of them. and the instinct to defend the minority % of a gender vs. confronting the WHY of this happening at this scale is not helping. half this country re-elected a convicted rapist as potus. but sure, it’s only the rare bad boogey men hiding in the shadows.
I was so upset by the New Yorker article about Andrea Skinner’s assaults and betrayal. Most upsetting to me was the revelations about Alice Munro and her weak, evil self-absorption. I’m only sorry that she’s not alive to experience being reviled. She’s not reviled enough!
I know…Picasso, Bob Dylan and countless other men for whom women seem to be nothing more than worthless sources of sexual pleasure… These men remain objects of adoration because “art”.
I just wish Munro were alive to experience humiliation for what she did to her daughter. And I also wish that Nobel Prizes can be taken back from evil recipients. But then, we’ve just awarded the highest honor in the land to a depraved, despicable rapist moron. So there you have it…
I’m not in a good mood this morning, as you can probably tell.
Two things: 1. I taught Muro's short stories in college for years. Wish I'd known her stories were biographical of her daughter's experiences. And yes, why can't Nobel Prizes be rescinded? 2. Depraved rapist moron: I lost all respect for the Republican party the first time they let him run. (I never voted Repub in my life.) Now, I've lost respect for half of America. Question: why don't over half of American voters know how dangerous he is?
I never liked her stories, which I didn’t like to admit, she was so revered. I felt her stories were cold and unfeeling. Emotionless. Maybe now I know why.
I love this piece and think it should be required reading for young journalists who want to write about art and power. This line esp hit me: " The only story worth telling about any of this is the pass." I totally agree with this. When I was reading that original piece and others, I found myself asking over and over "Why? Why and how does this happen over and over and over?" Of course, the answer is embedded within social context. Social context is thorny and interesting and that is what I want to hear about. I want to know what kinds of tradeoffs are people making internally when they cover up abuse. To change anything, we must first get straight with each other about how and why people act the way they do. (This is exactly why I spent so much time exploring "internal environments" aka what is happening inside people's heads). Thank you for this piece Laurie! As usual you are spotting the overlooked and framing it for others in a clear, poetic way.
The first I heard if Alice Munro was when her death brought her to my attention. Many on Substack praised her work, which I have yet to read. Thank you, Laurie, for your truth.
I was raped when I moved to Paris after college. I had just arrived and was looking for a job as a fille au pair. I went to L'Alliance Français to sit in on some French conversation classes to refresh my language. I was so happy to be there. I sat outside the gate after class and a man approached me. We had a conversation and Iwas delighted to be practicing my French. I was 23 and he was around 35. He told me he wanted me to meet his sister, so we walked together to "her" apartment. When I finally realized what was about to happen, I began to resist, but then I read a look in his eye that told me I had better cooperate, or things could get very ugly. I remember having an out of body experience. I am grateful I wasn't hurt and that he had used condom. How civilized is that? Afterward he invited me out for a coffee. I thought, you must be kidding. I went out with him seething in anger and wanting to do something. As I shook inside, I listened to him talk. He gave me his name and number and told me that I would be very successful in Paris.
It was traumatic in that I was alone in that city. I was definitely off men for a while, but I survived.
Thanks, Elyse. For a long time it bothered me that I didn't fight harder to get away, but I felt trapped in a locked apartment. I also knew I would never get any help from going to the police. My French was pretty good, but not that good. Many years later, I realized that I might have reported him to L'Alliance Français so they could warn other students. At the time, it didn't occur to me. I just quit attending classes there.
Laurie, I absolutely understand why you wouldn’t tag Aviv’s article here, but somehow she should read your brilliant critique and hopefully learn from it, as so should all reviewers; hell everybody who reads!
I think she made her choices deliberately, and I respect her skill. We have very different voices. I'm always talking to readers as if we are on stools, face to face. I appreciate your praise.
I love this framework of "the pass". And the way it can function as a shorthand to shift the focus from marveling at individual cases to a conversation about systemic harm. "The pass" is now a part of my vocabulary. I also love how your ideas come to me - always through such great writing.
There's so much here. Hard to choose what resonates the most. You've put this very complicated public airing and dissection into a perspective that only you can. Thank you.
So many people are still attacking Munro, and still giving the two men, her husband and the child's father, a pass! Both those men are evil! I do not think Munro is evil. I always loved her work, and still do. It's frightening and cold and comes from a bloody past that she tells in many ways. I m very sad for Andrea, I'm also sad for Alice, to be caught in something so damaging, and for Alice, to be so weak. Still, in all these comments and stories - the man who abused the child and that child's father get a pass. The weak woman who couldn't handle it, after the fact, gets hate. I want to see an article that explores those two men, and why they still get a pass.
I didn't mean that you did. You certainly didn't! But yours is the only voice I've heard not giving them a pass. Sorry. I should have been clearer. I do want to see a longer article on them, particularly Andrea's father.
I agree - tho it seems Munro had to, in some way, on some level, know - no matter what others say - and while she was in a way complicit - she was also a victim. But maybe the reason those men, her father and stepfather, get a pass is for the same reason they always get a pass - until they go outside the family home to commit their travesties, or get caught outside the family, somehow that’s always worse than keeping it in-house.
“The only story worth telling about any of this is the pass. The conditions that fostered what happened to Andrea are manifold and social, not the plight of individuals.” 🎯 while the article did chronicle the web of evasions/self-interest of those adjacent to munro’s fame & clearly showed what they gained by avoiding judgment or action, i agree that by making this such a “can you believe it” story, it perpetuates the myth that such events are rare. when in fact the data clearly shows how commonplace it is. ask any woman or girl. and still you have men and even women say “it’s not all men.” duh. but it’s a helluva lot of them. and the instinct to defend the minority % of a gender vs. confronting the WHY of this happening at this scale is not helping. half this country re-elected a convicted rapist as potus. but sure, it’s only the rare bad boogey men hiding in the shadows.
Thanks, great comment. xxL
i'm so tired and pissed. it was nice to have your honeymoon anecdote as a palate cleanser. :) xx
Many people could have told certain elements of this story. But no one could have captured it as laurie stone has here.
What a lovely comment!
Thank you for writing this important and brilliant piece.
I was so upset by the New Yorker article about Andrea Skinner’s assaults and betrayal. Most upsetting to me was the revelations about Alice Munro and her weak, evil self-absorption. I’m only sorry that she’s not alive to experience being reviled. She’s not reviled enough!
I know…Picasso, Bob Dylan and countless other men for whom women seem to be nothing more than worthless sources of sexual pleasure… These men remain objects of adoration because “art”.
I just wish Munro were alive to experience humiliation for what she did to her daughter. And I also wish that Nobel Prizes can be taken back from evil recipients. But then, we’ve just awarded the highest honor in the land to a depraved, despicable rapist moron. So there you have it…
I’m not in a good mood this morning, as you can probably tell.
Two things: 1. I taught Muro's short stories in college for years. Wish I'd known her stories were biographical of her daughter's experiences. And yes, why can't Nobel Prizes be rescinded? 2. Depraved rapist moron: I lost all respect for the Republican party the first time they let him run. (I never voted Repub in my life.) Now, I've lost respect for half of America. Question: why don't over half of American voters know how dangerous he is?
Sending love, xxL
I couldn’t finish that NY story. I was looking for that nine year old girl and all I got was a Paris Review article once again telling it slant.
I never liked her stories, which I didn’t like to admit, she was so revered. I felt her stories were cold and unfeeling. Emotionless. Maybe now I know why.
I love this piece and think it should be required reading for young journalists who want to write about art and power. This line esp hit me: " The only story worth telling about any of this is the pass." I totally agree with this. When I was reading that original piece and others, I found myself asking over and over "Why? Why and how does this happen over and over and over?" Of course, the answer is embedded within social context. Social context is thorny and interesting and that is what I want to hear about. I want to know what kinds of tradeoffs are people making internally when they cover up abuse. To change anything, we must first get straight with each other about how and why people act the way they do. (This is exactly why I spent so much time exploring "internal environments" aka what is happening inside people's heads). Thank you for this piece Laurie! As usual you are spotting the overlooked and framing it for others in a clear, poetic way.
Thanks for your thoughtful comment. xxL
Good, good, giving them the hell they deserve, putting the spotlight where it belongs.
The first I heard if Alice Munro was when her death brought her to my attention. Many on Substack praised her work, which I have yet to read. Thank you, Laurie, for your truth.
I was raped when I moved to Paris after college. I had just arrived and was looking for a job as a fille au pair. I went to L'Alliance Français to sit in on some French conversation classes to refresh my language. I was so happy to be there. I sat outside the gate after class and a man approached me. We had a conversation and Iwas delighted to be practicing my French. I was 23 and he was around 35. He told me he wanted me to meet his sister, so we walked together to "her" apartment. When I finally realized what was about to happen, I began to resist, but then I read a look in his eye that told me I had better cooperate, or things could get very ugly. I remember having an out of body experience. I am grateful I wasn't hurt and that he had used condom. How civilized is that? Afterward he invited me out for a coffee. I thought, you must be kidding. I went out with him seething in anger and wanting to do something. As I shook inside, I listened to him talk. He gave me his name and number and told me that I would be very successful in Paris.
It was traumatic in that I was alone in that city. I was definitely off men for a while, but I survived.
I’m so sorry that happened to you.
Thanks, Elyse. For a long time it bothered me that I didn't fight harder to get away, but I felt trapped in a locked apartment. I also knew I would never get any help from going to the police. My French was pretty good, but not that good. Many years later, I realized that I might have reported him to L'Alliance Français so they could warn other students. At the time, it didn't occur to me. I just quit attending classes there.
Laurie, I absolutely understand why you wouldn’t tag Aviv’s article here, but somehow she should read your brilliant critique and hopefully learn from it, as so should all reviewers; hell everybody who reads!
I think she made her choices deliberately, and I respect her skill. We have very different voices. I'm always talking to readers as if we are on stools, face to face. I appreciate your praise.
Wonderfully said about such a shocking thing. Thank you.
Just upgraded. Thank you for this @Laurie Stone.
What a dear you are! Many thanks, L
Me too!! We are distracted by famous people, even as we are made aware of context by Laurie Stone. Thank you, Laurie! your new subscriber
Thanks, love!
I love this framework of "the pass". And the way it can function as a shorthand to shift the focus from marveling at individual cases to a conversation about systemic harm. "The pass" is now a part of my vocabulary. I also love how your ideas come to me - always through such great writing.
Thanks, love.
'staying focussed entirely on the girl' -- the absolute heart of it. YES!
There's so much here. Hard to choose what resonates the most. You've put this very complicated public airing and dissection into a perspective that only you can. Thank you.
So spot-on. Both stories. Breathing the clean air of truth.
Thanks, love. We both look at the girl. xxL
So many people are still attacking Munro, and still giving the two men, her husband and the child's father, a pass! Both those men are evil! I do not think Munro is evil. I always loved her work, and still do. It's frightening and cold and comes from a bloody past that she tells in many ways. I m very sad for Andrea, I'm also sad for Alice, to be caught in something so damaging, and for Alice, to be so weak. Still, in all these comments and stories - the man who abused the child and that child's father get a pass. The weak woman who couldn't handle it, after the fact, gets hate. I want to see an article that explores those two men, and why they still get a pass.
I don't give the men a pass at all. This entire piece is about not giving the men a pass. I don't suggest not reading Munro. Read away.
I didn't mean that you did. You certainly didn't! But yours is the only voice I've heard not giving them a pass. Sorry. I should have been clearer. I do want to see a longer article on them, particularly Andrea's father.
I agree - tho it seems Munro had to, in some way, on some level, know - no matter what others say - and while she was in a way complicit - she was also a victim. But maybe the reason those men, her father and stepfather, get a pass is for the same reason they always get a pass - until they go outside the family home to commit their travesties, or get caught outside the family, somehow that’s always worse than keeping it in-house.